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McCain's Tortured Thinking

 
 
 

At the South Carolina Republican Presidential Candidates Debate, moderator Brit Hume posed this hypothetical: Three shopping centers near major American cities have been hit by suicide bombers. Hundreds are dead, thousands injured, and US intelligence believes an even larger attack is imminent. Some involved terrorists have been captured and taken to Guantanamo Bay. The question: How aggressively should we interrogate them?

The hypothetical was put first to John McCain, who answered: "The use of torture, we could never gain as much as we would lose in world opinion."

Note that the question was not: Should we torture, but rather, how aggressive should we be? McCain's answer was nonresponsive -- but worse, it trivialized the value of saving innocent lives in deference to supposed "world opinion."

Rather than even acknowledge conflicting moral ideals, McCain attempted the easy way out. He argued that torture -- a word which, again, Hume had not used -- accomplishes nothing. "The more physical pain you inflict on someone the more they're going to tell you what they think you want to know."

That's like being asked who you'd throw out of a two-man lifeboat, your wife or your mother-in-law, and taking the dodge that the old woman would probably have died of fright anyway, so you'd pick her. The question requires you to assume: What if she didn't?  

Likewise in Hume's hypothetical: What if coercive interrogation could yield results?

Which it certainly can. McCain fails to distinguish between forcing a confession and coercing verifiable information from someone like 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who famously began to sing after about two minutes with the waterboard. He also refuses to acknowledge the opinions of people like former CIA Director George Tenet, who has said that harsh interrogation techniques against hard core targets like KSM have proved more valuable than any other methods.

Offering no reasoned analysis but only shotgun arguments, McCain fired off this one: "If we do (coercive interrogation), what happens to our military people when they're captured?"

This is perhaps McCain's silliest anti-torture talking point. It assumes that treating terrorists with dignity gives them an incentive to treat us likewise. A counter-argument, which McCain never considers, would be that demanding civilized behavior as a condition of receiving the same is an incentive against barbarism -- which is why the Third Geneva Convention grants protections only to enemy captives who have followed "the laws and customs of war." 

In today's world, though, neither of these incentive-based arguments is convincing.

Does McCain or anyone else seriously believe that Islamofascists will treat our captured military personnel well if only we set a gentle example? Did the likes of Abu al-Zarqawi begin sawing off the heads of bound civilians only in response to reports of KSM's experience with the waterboard? We can treat them roughly, respectfully, even offer them Korans and tea; their behavior won't be altered. So why not do what's necessary -- unless you think that rough treatment would be an injustice against them?

Perhaps anticipating that he might be seen as promoting terrorists' rights, McCain always pulls out his trump-card argument -- that coercive interrogation (apparently of any kind or degree) erodes character. "It's not about the terrorists," McCain told Hume, "it's about us. It's about what kind of country we are."

This argument has superficial plausibility. Philosophers going back at least to Kant have judged behavior on its consistency or inconsistency with human virtue. The problem is that virtue thought and rights thought are two sides of a coin. No one would say that kicking a rock, however viciously, is an indication -- or a cause -- of bad character, because the rock can't be wronged. So if treating a terrorist roughly makes you a bad person, then it follows that the terrorist deserves better -- that he has rights.

But don't tell that to Giuliani. In a ticking bomb situation, he said without hesitation that he'd direct interrogators to "use every method they could think of" and added that -- unlike McCain -- he likes to keep terrorists locked up at Guantanamo "where they don't get the access to lawyers." Romney said he'd like to double the facility. Hunter said he'd tell interrogators, "Get the information; have it back within an hour." And Tancredo added, "I'm looking for Jack Bauer."

All refreshing expressions of a single sentiment -- that there are better ways to take measure of our national character than to fret over our treatment of throat-slitting, suicide-bombing barbarians.
 
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Mentors to Mass Murderers

 


Students in classrooms were taking exams. Others were registering for classes for the coming semester. Still others enjoyed snacks or meals, alone or in the company of friends. Just an ordinary day on an ordinary university campus. But something wasn't ordinary. On this day, there was a monster about.

July 31, 2002, the monster left a bomb packed with bolts, screws and nails in a bag on a table in the crowded cafeteria of the Frank Sinatra International Student Center of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. When the bomb exploded, its contents shattered glass, smashed wooden chairs, and ripped through bodies, ultimately leaving 9 dead and 85 injured. The dead included 4 Israelis and 5 Americans. Their names were David Ladowski, Levina Shapira, Maria Bennett, Benjamin Blutstein, Dina Carter, Janis Ruth Coulter, David Gritz, Daphna Spruch, and Revital Barashi.

April 16, 2007, on another campus in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, another monster lurked. Armed with two pistols and deadly intent, he first entered a coed dormitory on the campus of Virginia Tech University and shot and killed two people. Later, he entered an engineering building and killed 30 more and wounded still more.

The motives of the two monsters no doubt differed as did other details of their crimes. The first, an employee of the Hebrew University, also acted at the behest of Hamas, terrorists supported by Iran and now the duly elected "Palestinian" "government." The second, a brooding student majoring in English, acted alone and had some grievance with "rich kids" and "debauchery."

This does not make the two crimes or those responsible fundamentally different.

Mass murders all differ in their particulars. And motive isn't even an element -- part of the definition -- of the crime. The key element is intent. And the intent of abovementioned two murderers was similar -- to bring about mass deaths and mayhem against innocents. The results of such intent were, in both cases, similar: scores dead, injured, distraught, anguished, traumatized. 

But while the crime of April 16 feels real, the one of July 31 may seem distant and abstract. Not for reasons of time -- one event recent, the other nearly five years ago. But because similar events in places like Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and Madrid and London and Bali and Moscow are reported virtually every day. You read about them in your morning paper. Mass murder has become a daily fact of life.

Some have denied that the phenomenon of mass murder, at least in the United States, is any different now than ever before. They've pointed out, for instance, that as far back as 1927, an anti-tax zealot dynamited a schoolhouse in Michigan, murdering 40 children and several adults. Yes, monsters have always lived among us and always will. But 1927 is a long way back to dig for an example.

Consider, by contrast, the ordinariness of mass murders against Israelis, and in particular, a few of many murderous events surrounding the Hebrew University massacre of July 31.

Just weeks earlier on May 7, a mass murderer detonated a bomb in a crowded game club in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv, killing 16 people and wounding 55 more.

Two days later on May 19, a mass murderer detonated a bomb in a market in Netanya, killing 3 people and injuring 59 others.

Three days later, May 22, a murderer detonated himself in the Rothschild Street pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion, killing 2 people and wounding 40.

May 27, a murderer blew himself up near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva, killing a grandmother and her infant granddaughter and injuring 37 others.

June 18, a mass murderer detonated a bomb on an Egged Bus traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem, killing 19 people and injuring 74 others.

The next day, June 19, a mass murderer blew himself up at a bus stop and popular hitchhiking post in northern Jerusalem, killing 7 people and injuring 50 more.

Four days following the Hebrew University massacre, August 4, yet another mass murderer detonated a bomb on an Egged bus traveling from Haifa to Safed in northern Israel, killing 9 people and wounding 50 others.

These acts of mass murder, along with at least a dozen and a half others, all occurred in a single summer.

Many in the United States and elsewhere view such relentless acts of mass murder as somewhat of an abstraction -- as if universities and malls and ice cream parlors in Israel are different, alien and, after all, in the center of that age-old "conflict."

But when it happens here in the USA, so close, in a place so ordinary, reality can't be denied.

And so TV reports of the multiple murders in Virginia were, understandably, nonstop. Newspapers would soon trumpet headlines like BLOODBATH, underscoring the horrific reality of what had occurred, on an ordinary campus, here at home. 

We ought to solemnly remember the victims of the massacre in Virginia. But remember, too, who tirelessly sets the example that makes such slaughter so easily imagined as to -- who knows -- one day become almost unremarkable .

 
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The Monsters Among Us

 
Students in classrooms were taking exams. Others were registering for classes for the coming semester. Still others enjoyed snacks or meals, alone or in the company of friends. Just an ordinary day on an ordinary university campus. But something wasn't ordinary. On this day, there was a monster about.

July 31, 2002, the monster left a bomb packed with bolts, screws and nails in a bag on a table in the crowded cafeteria of the Frank Sinatra International Student Center of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. When the bomb exploded, its contents shattered glass, smashed wooden chairs, and ripped through bodies, ultimately leaving 9 dead and 85 injured. The dead included 4 Israelis and 5 Americans. Their names were David Ladowski, Levina Shapira, Maria Bennett, Benjamin Blutstein, Dina Carter, Janis Ruth Coulter, David Gritz, Daphna Spruch, and Revital Barashi.

On April 16, 2007, on another campus in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, another monster lurked. Armed with two pistols and deadly intent, he first entered a coed dormitory on the campus of Virginia Tech University and shot and killed two people. Later, he entered an engineering building and killed 30 more and wounded still more. The names of the dead in Virginia have not all been reported at this writing but include Emily Hilscher, who knew the killer, and Liviu Librescu, a 77-year-old engineering professor, who blocked the door to his classroom with his body when the gunman came, at the cost of his life. Librescu, a Romanian-born Holocaust survivor, was a citizen of Israel.

The motives of the two monsters no doubt differed as did other details of their crimes. The first, an employee of the Hebrew University, also acted at the behest of Hamas, terrorists supported by Iran and now the duly elected "Palestinian" "government." The second, a student majoring in English, as far as is known worked alone and had, according to a note left at his dorm, some grievance with "rich kids" and "debauchery."

This does not make the two crimes or those responsible fundamentally different.
Mass murders all differ in their particulars. And motive isn't even an element -- part of the definition -- of the crime. The key element is intent. And the intent of abovementioned two murderers was similar -- to bring about mass deaths and mayhem against innocents. The results of such intent were, in both cases, similar: scores dead, injured, distraught, anguished, traumatized.

But while the crime of April 16 feels real, the one of July 31 may seem distant and abstract. Not for reasons of time -- one event recent, the other nearly five years ago. But because similar events in places like Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and Madrid and London and Bali and Moscow are reported virtually every day. You read about them in your morning paper. Mass murder is now a daily fact of life.

Except here.

And so TV reports of the multiple murders in Virginia were, understandably, nonstop. Newspapers would soon trumpet headlines like BLOODBATH, underscoring the horrific reality of what had occurred, on an ordinary campus, here at home.

My modest hope is that we hold onto that reality, then bring it out and and feel it in all of its horror when we next read about other victims in other places. Today, my thoughts are with the victims in Virginia. Later, they will be with those in other places who will have fallen victim to monsters among us.
The Monsters Among Us  http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=27905  April 19, 2007

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Deniers of 9/11 and of the Holocaust Are Two of a Kind

 It is a given that television networks put profits above pride, but ABC has reached a new low in its sponsorship of Rosie O'Donnell. The daytime talk show host recently joined the world of "truthers" - people who believe that 9/11 was an attack staged by America's own government.

On ABC's popular The View, O'Donnell lent her expert opinion that it is impossible for the World Trade Center's building 7 "to fall the way it fell without explosives being involved." To say otherwise, she added, "is beyond ignorant." (When she isn't offering instruction on the fine points of structural engineering, O'Donnell entertains by hanging upside-down from a rope.)


If this all sounds like the howling of a rabid dog, O'Donnell isn't alone in the kennel. A recent poll from the Scripps Research Center found that more than a third of Americans believe that 9/11 was an "inside job." Those who actively promote the idea, though, are more than mere laughable loons. They bear resemblance to another particularly virulent conspiracy nut - the Holocaust denier.


It may be coincidence that O'Donnell's 9/11 denial has manifested itself in such close proximity to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's "Holocaust conference" of last December, but she sounds a lot like many of its participants.

Both profess interest in the pursuit of truth.

Mahammad Ali Ramini, advisor to Ahmadinejad, announced that he would chair a committee to find "the truth on the genocide of Jews." O'Donnell says that she is merely "trying, as always, for a rigorous truth."

And both profess total objectivity in that pursuit.

Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki made an offer to British Prime Minister Tony Blair to send "independent investigators" to visit former Nazi death camps - people "who are not sympathetic" to the Nazis nor "to the Zionist regime."

"I have begun doing exactly what this country, at its best, allows for me to do," wrote O'Donnell on her blog. "Inquire. Investigate."

Yet, for both, "truth" precedes "investigation."

The Holocaust, Ahmadinejad said at the start of the "conference," is a "myth."

The terrorist attack of 9/11, said O'Donnell at the mere outset of her "inquiry," "is impossible."

Both make shameless use of fabricated math and science.

"The number of victims at the Auschwitz concentration camp," said Australian Holocaust denier Frederick Toben, "could be about 2,007. The railroad to the camp did not have enough capacity to transfer large numbers of Jews."

"I do believe that it's the first time in history that fire has ever melted steel," said O'Donnell. "It is physically impossible."

And both cite "studies" or "experts" without actually citing any studies or experts.

"All the studies and research carried out so far have proven that there is no reason to believe that the Holocaust ever occurred," said former Iranian interior minister and Hizbullah co-founder Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour.

"Look at the films, get a physics expert in here from Yale, from Harvard, pick the school," said O'Donnell.

The worlds of deniers O'Donnell and Ahmadinejad intersected more overtly when the former defended the latter's hostage-taking of 15 British sailors and Royal Marines who, O'Donnell ruled by fiat, "went into Iranian waters and they were seized by the Iranians." O'Donnell added her expression of sympathy for mass murderers the world over: "Don't fear the terrorists. They're mothers and fathers."

Only one with the most sinister sentiments toward the country that gave her so much for so little could express such warm regard for its most determined enemies. And therein lies the real similarity between Holocaust deniers and 9/11 deniers. The "theories" of both, which could otherwise only be explained as serious psychopathology, are but expressions of venom and bile. The former hate Jews (and, often, the United States); the latter hate the United States (and, often, Jews).

White House press secretary Tony Snow's description of Ahmadinejad's conference as "a platform of hatred," then, applies as well to the current incarnation of The View.

Which leads to this question: If ratings were strong, would ABC allow, say, David Duke to host a show on which he preached his doubts about the Holocaust and his fondness for Nazis? Stay tuned and the answer will soon be revealed - by whether and how fast the network pulls the plug on O'Donnell.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7050
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Media-fabricated news

 


January 12, 2007

Beyond Bias: When the Media Fabricates News

By Steven Zak

A recent Gallup poll found that 56% of Americans think the media's coverage of events in Iraq is inaccurate, nearly two thirds of those believing that the media portray the situation as worse than it is. A biased, always bad-news-baring mainstream media trying to discredit our war effort is a disgrace. But worse is the blatant manufacturing of news through editorials disguised as reports.

A case in point was the "reporting" in the Los Angeles Times on the execution of Saddam Hussein.

While even liberal bastions such as the New York Times and the Washington Post ran objective headlines -- "Dictator Who Ruled Iraq with Violence is Hanged for Crimes Against Humanity," and "Saddam Hussein is Put to Death," respectively -- the Los Angeles Times loaded its headline with editorial content: "Hussein Executed -- And Iraq Braces."

Hussein was indeed executed, but the idea that "Iraq Braces" is pregnant with anti-war innuendo. A less subtle headline might have read: "Hussein Executed -- One More Bad Event In A Bad War."

To back that up, the Times ran a second A-section story headlined: "Impact of Hussein's death likely to be limited." Not even characterized as "analysis," this story "reported" that Hussein's execution "seemed to be much less than the historic turning point many once had anticipated." (As a former writing professor once counseled, beware the passive word "seemed.")

The Times -- perhaps following the example of the Iraq Study Group -- cherry-picked its experts to offer but one point of view.

It quoted a former State Department official that the Hussein execution was "not what it might have been."

And a spokesman for the U.S. Institute for Peace that "I just don't see this as a big turning point."

And someone from the Endowment for International Peace who called the execution a mere "sideshow."

And, as a topper, "Mideast specialist" Juan Cole, the über-leftist University of Michigan history professor who has likened the state of Israel to a puppeteer with a fearsome "level of control over a branch of the United States government." Cole warned that Hussein's execution would likely provoke violence as, "To the Sunnis, it will look like just one more slap in the face."    

Presenting a committed leftist like Juan Cole as an academic offering impartial scholarly analysis is bad enough. But the Times' "report" offers not one alternative view.

Couldn't find one?  The Times could have asked former CIA Director Jim Woolsey, who called Saddam's execution "a positive watershed." Or military expert Ralph Peters, who characterized the hanging as "an important milestone." (As opposed to the grim milestones the MSM endlessly "reports.") One significant impact Hussein's execution will have, Peters wrote, is that "no dictator will sleep quite as soundly now."

The Times could also have included "man-in-the-street" opinions from Baghdad -- like that of Suad Shakir, who, according to the Washington Post, said that "People will be relieved" by Saddam's death. Or of a Baghdad barber who said of Saddam: "He does not deserve to be alive."

But when you're writing an editorial -- including one in disguise as news -- you seek authority in support of your view. 

Let's concede that there's reason for bad feelings in your gut over the execution of Saddam -- and over Iraq generally. A video showing thugs of Iranian agent and terrorist Moqtada Sadr rebuking the former dictator as he stood on the gallows could make you wonder who we're fighting for. So could this recent report about our Iraqi "allies":
As politicians, religious leaders and other soldiers watched, five Iraqi soldiers bit the heads off live frogs while a sixth slit a live rabbit's stomach and "ate its heart before tossing the carcass to his comrades to chew on."
All in "a display of courage."

You can pardon Americans for a lack of enthusiasm at the thought of blood and treasure spent on liberating barbarians.

But none of that excuses an agenda-driven media nor rehabilitates the self-inflicted damage to that media's reputation.  

In a footnote: Four days after the Times' report, the paper ran a small wire service story which contained this observation: In reaction to Hussein's execution, Sunni Arabs "have taken to the streets in mainly peaceful demonstrations."

So much for Juan Cole's Mideast expertise.

Steven Zak is an attorney and writer in California. He has written for publications including the Atlantic Monthly, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.

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Send "Team America: World Police" to North Korea

By Steven Zak

You've read all the strategies for countering Kim Jong Il: Everybody ends diplomatic relations (fat chance); cut off his fuel (tell that to Hugo); kick him out of the UN (is that a bad thing?) ... 

Here's a more realistic idea. Dictators thrive on ego -- you know, the huge posters, looming statues, everything designed to create the illusion that some schmuck is larger than life.

So counter his own propoganda with some of our own: Drop 100,000 DVD players into North Korea, each loaded with a copy of "Team America: World Police," which shows Kim as the whiny-voiced cockroach that he is. Equip each player with a battery so it can be used by anyone without electricity (like the 200,000 people in concentration camps who probably don't get to see many movies).

The Team will provide the inspiration the North Korean people need, and it won't be long before they rise up and say: "Take that, terrorist!"
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Feeding the Foley Fire

Posted by Steven Zak

Sure, Mark Foley's fall conjured lies from the left, but with plenty of support from the right. Everyone knows, for instance, of the dishonest campaign ad by Democratic congressional candidate Patty Wetterling, in which she describes Foley's behavior as "predatory" and Foley as a man "who used the internet to molest children." But why shouldn't a lefty be hysterical, even if inaccurate, when the moralistic right is behaving much the same way?

Michelle Malkin concurred that Foley's behavior was "predatory" and "lecherous." Tony Blankley called for Denny Hastert's resignation in the service of "traditional moral values." And numerous conservatives have described Foley's interest in male pages (or is it just his interest in males?) as "creepy," "disgusting," "sickening" and "repulsive."

Moralists on high horses -- all you've accomplished was to feed the Democrats' fire.

Most of the to do, of course, was over an IM (Instant Message) exchange between Congressman Foley and a male page that ABC news released on Tuesday, which IM consisted largely of flirtation and overt sex talk. We now know that the page was 18 -- a legal adult anywhere -- not 16 as ABC News had reported (though the age of consent in D.C. is 16 anyway). And that Foley's advances were welcomed and reciprocated by the page.

But worse: reports now indicate that the page was leading Foley on in order to have a laugh, with fellow pages, at Foley's expense. Well, they got their laugh -- and lost Foley his job, ruined his reputation and destroyed his life and legacy.

So who's the real "predator" here and who's the victim? What do you say now -- Michelle? Tony?

But doesn't the whole IM exchange still feel "creepy?"

Well, it should feel creepy to invade someone's privacy -- to peer in the window at flirtation between two consenting adults. And admit it -- you find flirtation between two men far creepier than you would if the chat were between a middle-aged man and a willing 18-year-old female high school hottie. Just a tad homophobic are you, you upstanding upholders of "traditional moral values"? 

To those peeping-Tom moralists hellbent on condemning not only Foley but Hastert and others, how do you feel now that the truth has come out? Now that you know you've been had? (Some of you still feel morally superior: Noel Sheppard in the American Thinker, for instance, reiterates that all should be "indeed repulsed" by Foley's behavior.)

Even before the facts were known, too bad so few of you had any sense of proportion. You might have reflected that sex chat with a young man clearly old enough to take care of himself -- even if he hadn't been 18 -- was hardly equal in import to, say, a drunken and debauched senator leaving a young girl trapped upside down in his Oldsmobile at the bottom of the Poucha Pond. 

But now the damage from your high-toned moralizing is done. Creepy.
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Agenda Journalism

Posted by Steven Zak

 "Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Fuels Terror," read the front-page headline in Sunday's Los Angeles Times. The war in Iraq "has made global terrorism worse," reports the Times, "according to a sweeping assessment by U.S. intelligence agencies" in a classified government document.

And all this, says the Times, is according to "a government official familiar with the document."

In other words, the Times hasn't read it, doesn't know what it says, and doesn't have a clue whether the anonymous "official" has given an accurate or even unbiased read. But that doesn't stop them from making this the top headline story.

Agenda journalism? Naah.  

In the same Sunday edition, on the editorial page, the Times complained about the compromise reached between the McCain gang and the White House over what the Times calls the administration's "proposal to redefine Common Article 3" of the Geneva Convention concerning "cruel" and "degrading" treatment of terrorists. (Question: How can a terrorist be even more degraded as a human being than he has already chosen to be?) The Times describes the compromise as "tortured" and urges Democrats to "resist a stampede." In other words, the Times seems to be characterizing said compromise as a Bush steamroll job over McCain.

Yet two days earlier, the Times ran this front-page headline: "Bush Bows to Senators on Detainees" and described this as "a major concession to" the McCain gang. That headline must have been satisfying for them to run, since it says, essentially, "McCain wins, Bush forced to admit he's wrong."

Trouble is, as the Sunday editorial makes clear, the Times doesn't believe that assessment to be accurate.

But if only that headline and characterization were accurate, it would be bad for Bush. So even though they themselves didn't believe it, they ran it. 


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Eat Your Spinach

Posted by Steven Zak
 
I just can't help but wonder what Popeye would have done if the E. Coli spinach scare had occurred in his day. He'd have gotten his butt kicked up and down the street, that's what.

I know, I know, he always ate canned spinach, not bagged. And come to think of it, even before eating it, he had the strength to burst the can open with one hand, so he was a formidable opponent even without it (though he no doubt got that way by eating spinach on a regular basis, thereby maintaining his strength).

So I'm forced to re-evaluate: If the spinach scare had occurred in Popeye's day, somebody would have picked a fight with him, expecting him to be weak, and he would have kicked that hapless person's butt.

The lesson here seems obvious: Maintain your strength. And when you're attacked, kick your attacker's butt like there was no tomorrow.
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Mel Gibson revisited

Posted by Steven Zak

I challenged Hugh Hewitt and others for their stance re Mel Gibson ...

http://www.jewishpress.com/page.do/19240/Gibson_Syndrome_--_%3Ci%3EFriends_of_Israel_Go_Wobbly%3C%2Fi%3E.html
  

... and for trivializing or otherwise deflecting criticism of Gibson after his rant re Jews. I recognized Hewitt and the others (Prager and Medved) as the champions of Israel and of Jews that they most certainly are, but argued that they were misguided in feeling at all defensive on behalf of Gibson, if for no other reason than that, far from the conservative some take him to be, Gibson is an avowed admirer of Michael Moore and shares the latter's anti-war view.

Yesterday I read a report at NewsMax, citing the Hollywood Reporter, that Gibson, in an interview re his forthcoming film about Mayan civilization on the brink of collapse, compared said civilization to America. "The precursors to a civilization that's going under are the same, time and time again," said Gibson. "What's human sacrifice if not sending guys off to Iraq for no reason?"

What does Gibson have to do or say to get conservatives to back away from him completely and without reservation -- appear with Cindy Sheehan chanting "Bush lied, people died, and the Jews -- who are behind all wars everywhere -- made him do it"?


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